Fitz from Manhunt: Unabomber

Infinite Wisdom with VB the Wise
Tuesday, September 12th

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Welcome everybody to the initial. Infinite wisdom podcast with a V be the wise yes that's or calling it infinite wisdom because why. We're not constrained by any clock here we can go as long as we need to know to dispense all that is here only. It's not so much my wisdom that's important here it's the guest wisdom. And what a guest we have for you to day. If you've watched man on unabomber like I have and if you've been passionate about it like I have there's one person that you wanna talk about in this world and that would be desks. In fits you own are the inaugural guest on the infinite wisdom podcast welcome my friend. I am honored and privileged to be the banks are having mile and hello to everybody out there. I guess. Let's get right to work as we get a ton of stuff to talk about. Start with this the moment they get the unabomber and you hear that they've got them. Tell me your emotions tell me where you work tell me how it all happen. Well. Alan all happened is a long story which you can duke it. Bit by bit year but I was I purposely stayed behind in San Francisco via the location of the unabom task force. And we had teams already in the Lincoln Montana area about a month undercover Koppel are going around pretending. The TV the miniseries has them as bird watchers believe they were like. Mining prospectors are something in real life taking pictures all my chips whatever but anyway everything was building up to Iraq making. Anyone making you simply equal next. But CBS news contacted director Freddie. Louis Koreans said eighty we know you suspect openly in Montana. We know his last name and and as QA RI or something like that and running with the show tonight. And director freeh talked him into. 72 hours TV show made it 24 I guess from more dramatic. You know input there but we had 48 hours or every two hours altogether. I stayed behind finished up does that he page affidavit I was working on. Everything together. Next thing you know we got it to a judge he signed off on it and the unabomber was eventually arrested around. I think San Francisco time around 11 o'clock in the morning and that burst and I was concerned about this is an officer. Is everybody OK was anybody hurt officers agents unabomber himself and the answer was no everyone is fine. So that was number one and that's really where my initial set of relief seller. I think I thought watch in the series and the way the capture went down must've been embellished I'm shocked to hear that you say is as. Pretty accurate that leads me to this question and did you when Dan Ackerman have a little back and forth about gee can we get a warning did he walked in your face. Could the real Dan Ackerman was named Ian pre and now we actually relatively well. We did go back and forth that few weeks before about do we have enough or arrest warrant we had enough search warrant. And of course we really wanted the arrest warrant and the actual. Assistant US attorneys and he was the preacher aero. And he had to do in fact use its main in this series. I was in an intelligent you know aggressive. And hard working a prosecutor back in the day assigned to this case. And down we did go back in port about the value of language and it'll. Be what steaks and text alcoholism. Analysis excuse me all the stuff put together and he was all that can bid and so on now walk in the office one day. And it wasn't like BRB or as in the mini series and I have no problem does that they you know. Create two include and building tension stop pro probably about a week before the actual warrant was put together that I found. You can't have your cake and needed to you know the verbs transposed. And that was actually bound in the mad about the six month war. On paragraph 185 so now we have kaczynski's writings saying well you can't eat your cake and Abbott to a very very rare use it to that so. It was all coming together. Tempers. Got a little bit laid one in fact. CBS came in and say you have you know. Three days to put this story together. We're running it was a one way or the other and there's a little bit of heated debate and and and argument going back in court. Well we all better job done we got the warrant to the judge just a search warrant we didn't quite feel we had enough for an arrest warrant but we know we found. The right evidence inside the cabin they would turn into arrest and the and lonely all look exactly what happened. We're talking to James FitzGerald FBI profiler linguistic. And a guy that helped catch the unabomber. He's the real life guy that is played by Sam Worthington and manhunt unabomber let's go back fits if we can for a second. You joined the task force the unabomber task force yet the call hey can you go out did they need you for a couple of months. We knew yet there are you shocked at how little they have to go on. You're right I just finished twelve weeks of profiling school the BB miniseries and it skips over yet I was a police officer super. Let years. Join the FBI and I want the New York City or seven years. And work on the bank robbery task force and I did all kind of different you know cases and investigations there that in 95 I was promoted to. The the now called behavioral analysis unit won by different. Part of break off from the behavioral science unit John and things John Douglas just retiring as Ike showed up. And he gave us like one hour presentation on the unabom. In our twelve weeks of training and adjusting looking back at. In passing the torch to me because I actually on vacation after this training to my. Beach Allison our southern Jersey and the middle one in the days in a phone call from my mind laws. And at that you heard about the unabom case right yeah a little bit and that's what they need a profiler out San Francisco for thirty days are you interested. These days in San Francisco I've never been there at that point. I think a year I can do thirty days well BP it. Beat beat anybody what to show they know that 38 turned into better part of a year and a half all things add it up so. So yeah I get out there and I would sure they wanted Jim FitzGerald the investigator. Jim FitzGerald the brand new profiler. Were Jim FitzGerald something else and down. I barely got there about three weeks after the manifesto had been received by the New York Times and of course the deal was offered by the unabomber. You know basically publisher Irish not so much the New York Times did people out there would receive bombs so. So I said you know what guys. Maybe I should be the one focusing on language in this case a lot of that investigators at work this case some pro honored before me they came up with some real solid. Ideas and suggestions. And direction. But nobody's. Nobody at all could pinpoint on a target. They were actually look for the investigation really it forensic investigation really went nowhere because I was leading Oakland fingerprints. No DNA no indebted writing no hairs fibers. There are actually up great hair fiber found under one of us there stamps meaning it was real error but they determined it wasn't the unabomber's. And so here's this guy not only. Not only leaving no evidence at all he's purposely including counter evidence. So that tells you how sophisticated at what kind of a crime all we're dealing with yourself. You're right he'd be when I showed up. You know that the task force was was was moving along they were doing all the right things. But they were readily admit there's no one thing they were doing up until that point in time. That led them any closer to the identity of the you know arch and that's like that you know guys may be the language in this manifesto in the thirteen letters he wrote before it. It opens some doors for us. And that's why in the big bought Serb there's. One on you run with that. So on the manifesto. I mean to me when you look back twenty years now and you. Decide okay we're gonna publish this thing even though we don't to dictated terms by a guy that's killing people. It seems like a no brainer but it was anything but a no brainer at the time right. That's absolutely true. There were a lot of arguing. In at the the UTF management office there was arguing. In the FBI headquarters in Washington DC there was arguing and Department of Justice right across the street and Washington DC you know we don't give into demands of terrorists you know we don't put this nonsense out. No one's gonna read this anyway. It's all you liberation you know who cares about technology does that the other and the you know you don't have many other terrorists or come forward once their little. Paragraphs you know pages were. Ordinarily manifesto published and we went back and forth back and forth and just couldn't help but you know I'm reading this thing every day it was my focus. And and I remember I was one that came up with. That 1985 letter actually in my life out there no one had seen this before. But on the 1985 letter to doctor McConnell to bomb was owed to it. There on the left hand column reading the first letters of each top of each paragraph. Was the sentence. It is. Sounds odd but it actually grammatically correct and that is somebody that was a clue that nobody saw before and I brought back to the SEC Jim Raman. My first couple days out there are these that. No one's ever seen it before what you think it means I'm not a 100% sure maybe this guy as a father issue as some sort but. What it probably means or other clues somewhere in this manifesto. And I wanna spend time looking at it. And maybe we get an out there somebody with even more experience of looking for these things will recognize these clues. But if nothing also recognize the topics that dean the specific language in there and they were terms like. You know brought it chick representing women negroes representing. African Americans and we've gotten archaic terms like just mentioned. He used the term cool headed magician. And you could even search these terms of the Internet back in the Internet was so Julia was out there these early web site having started up including. The first iteration of FBI dot gov. But other than magically get automatically going to try to go to bookstores or or or libraries and look up certain things which I didn't separate Cisco dot. But lo of the old. I have made my argument and said geysers enough. Idiosyncratic. Language in here if not unique language someone's going to recognize a former high school teacher. College professor neighbor a lawyer. And X why you know a family member I would like it I I was Smart not to say oh yeah as blood brother recognized that. I'm not strike you that exact term right now I put in their family member. And shored up that took a woman sitting in front of a computer in Paris France. Shortly after it was published in the Washington Post. To recognize the writing of a brother and all that you've never met. Came back and older husband David Kaczynski and next thing you know. Process begins arresting his brother Ted is in. So let's get back to earn a second but first I wasn't even gonna ask you about the dead it is I because I thought that was fictitious that really happened. Yeah and and now I'm I'm on a number of people others. In the miniseries or macro story being told that a micro story and the macro story they're getting everything right on the money and in terms of dates and times victims' names specific words. From the manifesto. That I was the one that found most of them. And meeting of the I didn't yen and idiosyncratic wording. That was definitely in there I know letter that they they kind of data that wrong in the miniseries for some reason though that even three months ago. I think it would have been more dramatic if it came in ten years ago which it actually did but I was the first one to see it when I was first assigned to the UT again. You about this source so that was part of that whole thing and we found some other odd phrase Knology sentencing. In their two and that's when basically my first couple days there of the bought or even sure they knew they had a new profiler. You know now assigned to the U yet there's one there are few months ago. And I know a name that nobody would recognize. That the deal. Law and they they kind of fired him from the UT at an aunt had to go back the Quantico. And ironically they show eight. It's profiler. Being quote unquote fired you know right at the manifesto was published and I didn't catch their unabomber. And and sent back to Quantico so. It adjusting in that story line is almost nothing untruthful. That they are showing their but there is that for the dramatic license would complaining. Or making composite characters out of a number of the people there won't. With me. Did you Baghdad did you ever actually touches typewriter and if so did you just pushed the went awry. Vaccine is I start my third book a journey to the center of the line. With great prep there's about fifteen pages long. And in the reader doesn't know exactly yet what up. A little ear but basically it's my first entry. It's my first time on the scene of the unabomber's cabin. I'm just enough you know in the sandalwood trees around mean mountains in the distance and of course I know where I am but I slowly walking the reader up towards the cabin. So I see that scene play out in the episodes 79 gas. The number the panel and at one rate for the the final episode. That's very close to what actually happened. You're. He may want. I was Syria or even dare I might fit he's gone by so you really were wrapped cat. Oh absolutely I wasn't there for the arrest and you know no no ands or buts about that. I was back finishing up there putting missed the affidavit together and get a team are already in place but no I was that they would that a few days want that same night. But within a few days and shorten up the ought to sit there and keep on wanting to get there on your round I went inside I had gloves on and I think if you look close. Uptick in the miniseries is wearing surgical gloves I'm saying please don't touch anything what your bare fingers but I think he had gloves on. And odds that the type writer is that it that it doesn't quite writers out that it didn't have a and they took them all the same vintage like 1930s 1940s. And they sent a ball to the lap. Finally they found the one I like that matched all the unabom documents to back up itself as a great piece of rounds together. Never heard them more I'd never heard that's an idea why. Now he had he had at least the Dutch and some didn't work somewhere out of Redmond you know whatever but he he would write to his mother brother over the years. And we were getting these letters starting in February and of course the originals were going to collapse I was working off copies and I would of loved do occurred. That we kind of type right about Belichick and so much pressure off. With the laboratory can do that little trickier now with. With word processors and critters to match up and certain brand in May but back in the day you could. Probably still do does someone using a type of what you could actually specify. Specific make and model and year of a type writer. And and you get that type writer and the key sometimes are defective over the belittle. You know piece missing often. But that could happen of course until a few weeks after the cabin was search in the lab on had a chance the eagle reached piper. That's why I love doing this broadcast it's because I. I have so many questions written down view but now I'm like throwing a mile because I thought for sure I didn't need to ask you about the cabin. What was it like sitting in the cabin of the guy I think you've been stalking him you've been haunting me you've been trying to convince people this is the guy what's it like sitting in that cabin. In a plot that was stalking him but this. On an ounce on like there is definitely on. And there are people honing a whole lot longer than me grow like seventeen years. We had one postal inspector. So I do our best horse. He was there from like one of the earliest bombing seven BIR. Eighty. At least you know working part time back enemy threat that yes horse but up. So here I show up in July of 95 and by April 96 the unabomber's under wraps. And at apple everyone who want to hear me it was a team effort by the FBI. No the miniseries makes like it's you know it's all it's all the time we basically got along pretty well yes some arguments and disagreements. But on the whole it it it played itself out but. I'd like I said in the preface the my book I start talking about you can eat your cake and avid to wait and that the way we say or somebody else. And I would there about three pages that I'm more right to do that first day on the mountainside in Lincoln might add up. Slowly walking to this happen. And about open a door that basically is opening a door to my life. So I try to be a little you know metaphorical their if you will and I think the people are read it certainly very much appreciated the writers. The head writer enters a drug media actually read that preparers and number of times and he's very much based that scene. From the spares Tuesday night where it is go to the cabin for the first time opens the door. And sits in side and his actually reading through sums up a lot of the documents had been removed by the time I got there. But for whatever reason the books were still up one whose shelves. And and the books themselves felt fantastic story there were about 200 of them one very shelves in this in in the capital all the bomb. Bomb making equipment and adjusting juxtaposition there are. Items in the cabin. And I just found that ruling to just you know post and they are spared my head slowly move left or right it all off line of sight around. What books were there I eventually you know we get somebody put together a list of each of the books in alphabetical order by up. By opera turned down his favorite. Novelist is Charles Dickens you that Greece separate books from dickens'. And then. Whose favorite. Topic could see it was twins reared hearts. Yes at least three different academic papers he somehow came upon. And inspires certain. Psychologist who teaches at the university of Minnesota I believe he's older I don't have his name that that might on. For some reason the unabomber Ted Kaczynski wanted to know about twins reared apart trying to figure himself out year why he's the way he is. Like his brother David they're not twins of course or seven years are. But why David is so different blends very well do society as a real job and tired of regular woman. And living a happy light. And it wasn't back reset all updated for doing Matt easier rip up the picture on. Eighty sort of metaphorical but I know he wrote some very nasty letters to David forever getting married and add to this particular woman who we never met. But he still angry items so up. And I've seen. Bit in the cabin I think what actually daytime when I went there are they at a site probably a bit more dramatic. But it is very very similar to what happened. In real life. Talking a fit for man on unabomber he's also the author of the book a journey to the center of the mind volume three should pick a point to envoy to mourn as well. What does anything by fits you gotta get it because that is just so fascinated. Let's go back and a manifesto for second fits because. The reality is all of your work let up to the big decision are we don't publish the singer an odd you convince them to publisher because somebody out there is gonna notice this. But the reality is if not for a sister in law in Paris logging on and reading at this may all have been for not right. You're absolutely correct and that the miniseries made it happen like if we didn't urged the unabomber that very day. The date what goes published. You know it's over a lost cause whenever we on news was long term project. And I guess we did follow recorded surveillance teams FBI surveillance schemes from the entire western US we filed every single person. In San Francisco that today at two separate bookstores. Obvious sleeper. Some photography purposes that you're haven't won in the miniseries but there were two separate news doers. That's old the Washington Post and we chose to watch imposed because your idols all. All over the country. But on the West Coast and royalties San Francisco. Or at least that part of California was only two places and so yes we filed everybody copy tag numbers down to where they live to where they work some people supplement street. I was in the command boat walking talking listening to this guy back. Some people were followed to the bar with Tuesday's subway system in San Francisco bay area rapid transit. I'm there was no Tatis shut anybody but. But there were some strange people like that kind of almost asked that iconic composite. You know who did what. Sweaty with with aviator glad it's like guys but but nothing came of it that so we know the long term project at the next few weeks we're getting people all in all I read it I saw this. I saw that in my. My lawyer may be a suspect buying you know my ex a lot of ex husband called on. That would put in my book I even got a call an up I'm keeping our anonymous on purpose. I got a call from a professor in the midwest obviously at that. And actually came into the 800 number. And and the agent who handled that you know on to Auburn I think some who call you back for that or so and so. And the agent gave me you know all inside the up. Respecting you wanna talk to this professor. So I caller back hello professor so and so I heard you call the hotline. What can I do for you well. I read the manifesto and she's very matter of fact I read the manifesto. On familiar with the unabom case and what type is something right up front you ready. Yes ma'am go ahead. I slept with the unabomber. Okay. The can you give me some details and now on the those each else. Where what that he looked like you know and she was very serious and and an intelligent person and she was convinced. That back in the early seventies to a friend of a brand. One weekend on her college campus she met a guy who was very radical leftist. And he claimed he knew who. The the Bert character that was you know not mentioned in the it mapped in in manhunt in net you know you Tuesday. He was SPS you know weatherman back in the early seventies and and by the bomb go. All in universe he was content so this. Guy that she slept where do this guy Leo Frederick Bert. And or at least talk of him. And and she just put too he was always talk about technology and evil what driver are as she put this guy perfectly maxed the unabomber's. Physical description as well what do you think about that. So I've listened to or taking notes well OK and she did Alice and I did all my book. Believe this guy gave her. A book of some sort history book. Something about philosophy moderate a lot speak and she kept it all the years. Well all right thankful sent some local FBI agents out to get the book and take fingerprints. No problem so within like three days that he does not inner door pick up the book senate collapse her fingerprint and it. A few other side of fingerprints but nothing matched up. To anybody who wanted for anything and it turns out. Whether she was happy you're not a few months later to find out she hadn't did not please. But but nonetheless. I had always admired her perverse civic duty in doing so NIC just had a ice and her copy in my book. And we got a phone call about two or three weeks ago when that she was fine how are related or little story of course like after anonymous and up. She still thinks may be it was the unabomber what she's going to go. Even something like that so these are the kind of people. You know that we're we are getting caught some legitimate like her. And really thought they were on to something regular credit because obviously he was other people again you'd imagine how many ex husband being accused. By ex wives are or people lawyers mailman. You know the milkman you name it and you know air and by the fall of 95. You know October November and the manifest those published. We still had about one in 500 different suspects I call them by some despite description. I saw a guy on the you know New York City Subway you know 34 street he looked just like. Composite okay thank you and we write that down and that's one of our stock at a you'd gotten any given time we had names locations. We had surveillance teams following them would do you know we would check their mail might actually open it. But we can actually look at who's writing them letters not that the Postal Service but some of these people could I would beat manifesto expert at this point. Some of these people they would somehow get known writings of them high school term papers college these is whatever and I'd be asked to look at them. And even though I wasn't officially Italy was back then the B. I still knew enough. Of the language in the manifest as saying not this is our guy let's move on and and in the course someone else. And that's why are. Did you find going back Bullock were there other tips that pointed to Kaczynski or was it just his brother. In other words to me because I'm with you some professors gonna recognizes or whatever but did any professor recognize it did any of these students say geez I took a course to this guy in this I don't like that. They were so many amazing stories when we finally identify it since yeah. And finally after his arrest went out interviewed some of his former students at Berkeley. And there was big lead we had in Chicago of course was the hometown of the unabomber we were pretty sure of that. And they were some old professor there at one of the schools and university Chicago yet. But this is like November of 95. He kept us on the to start grows about a month because you read the manifesto swore he had a student. From Chicago. That was wacky any kind of on the radical side that he could have swore he was at least in the fireworks or firecrackers but he also wrote these documents. But he couldn't think of his name. He he couldn't find any of the papers this student wrote. He he claimed it actually visited his house once why professor would have does that. One of the students houses I'm not sure but the FBI agents and Chicago drove him around for two solid days in like every neighborhood. That this kid could possibly live back in the yeah early to mid seventies but. But to no avail also backed a professor lead there's doubt the second professor lead one claims she slept with a Miller claimed he taught them. They went nowhere. No other professors came forward. Again a lot of people. There's a psychologist from work for the Baltimore county police. He called us up and say hey you guys familiar with the shot you'll he's a French philosopher and write a lot about technology and and and we were aware of that already although. Unabomber doesn't referenced him specifically. In in the manifesto. I'd done some research and realized. But there was a book called I believe the technological society translated from French now on English I read that. Back in the early days in I realized then that. While the unabomber was an excellent writer and he could certainly convey his thoughts. Very methodically very clearly and concisely. We realize a lot of this work at a regional a lot of what he was putting out there about the evils of big society big government. Like toward big big entertainment. Are massive entertainment and all these type things you know the evils of leapt isms psychology psychiatry. These weren't really original thoughts. But he was certainly you know telling it in his own way and very intelligent way and like. You know I'm told a few people 21 years ago upon reading the manifesto and I'll say this day. There's no getting around but a lot of what the unabomber wrote kind of made sense. We wind we may be bargaining to technologically advanced our own well being especially over the last. It years I mean you know. Communication has changed so much. The glass baby needed thirty to forty years with the email text messaging and instant messaging and you could be around the world. And and talk to someone like you never let them. And and maybe there's something with that the human spirit that that's not meant to be. And there are something contrary to Al you know were designed incited aren't wired but whatever. We all agreed the same time at least except for one person that you don't send bombs and kill people to get this message across so I'm. I think your original question was you know what that predate and we owe somebody else would have recognized the writing style therein. But quite frankly up until February of ninety sit. There was no one solid lead over the regarding release of the of the manifesto. Except for this guy David Kaczynski had been sitting on it. With his lawyer about. Three months at this point. That finally. He called the FBI I was back in Quantico what it. Fired from the U yet remember I was able to supervisor assigned to the profiling you'd Quantico. That you Kiet wanted to be out there are so I'm really a stranger to my brand new unit in on ago of a stranger to the people UT have. Some of what the series in shelling there have always provide a Hollywood very difficult I would call them every day of course I did have some trips back in order. To suburban Toledo might badly in suburban Philly. I'm now assigned to Quantico about four hours away but I am temporarily assigned to Sampras just go and you know with. A family I'm becoming estranged from my hate to admit it I mean that in my book. I personalized my book in my story too in between chasing robbers. And rate as the bad guys all but you know there's a typical arc of being. A law enforcement officers specially away from home and then all of a sudden not back in Quantico trans going back and forth on weekends. To us suburban Philly and all the sudden it got just point three page document look at it. Now Bibi doesn't wanna. I 120 I have been sent known writings of suspects back and even on nodded at her sister anymore obstacle is formally assign. To the UT gaps in between work regular serial killer serial rape cases. I'm looking at these documents not this guy now this guy's writing doesn't match well this guy's a few interesting things yen much are available for a week seem wary excess. But nothing came of it all the sudden I just like in the miniseries is 23 page document. Comes over the backs and DB I gotta say I was not in a movie theater I'd never let my kids in the movie theater. That's what the writer thought would be kind of clever to show because it was so upset. With finding the unabomber but that never happened. It wasn't good and I'll give the workers occur that that note sucks you gives you gotta keep explain a map but that was the fact provide thought in the zaireans. Yet at least the kids warrant ward five mile up a wander around my oldest would have been like sixteen back. So you know he could have been handled himself a suburban speaker but it didn't happen at the bottom line. And and again that would have been in bend Salem Pennsylvania. It is quite so there's some times space continuum last year but again not important it's it doesn't have to get the way this story. But I did that letter does this document did come and and they would tell me which prompt for the first time they wouldn't say. Unlike earlier. You know letters they send me your documents note which just look at this new details of a note to thank. And I spent about two hours on this thing. And pulled out my old copy of the manifesto to earmark and called multi colored in and out all kind of you know arms to eat on them. I finally realized holy you know life. This is either at all elaborate plagiarism. Somebody got the manifesto out of the Washington Post. Then got an old typewriter so all paper and sat down and basically I like an outline a truncated version of it. Or it back and beat is Rubin. I told the Guyanese are my exact word bought the WTO over the found. I said you've got your man. And they did it we know it's not a plagiarism we know it's the real deal from the early seventies you're coming back to San Francisco. And that was my second stint there and that's what we've had a full court press on it wasn't like it off the plane and sent for Cisco. And again I walked the reader draw this in my book. I got picked up in the car I wanna might fellow agents I could probably who the hell wrote this 23 page document. Well it's not gonna believe it but there's this hermit living in a have been. In the hills of Montana he's a former Berkeley professor of mathematics. He's weak link is our guy but it's we need you to prove it. And that's one phase two of this investigation kicked in and within about a month and a half. Ted Kaczynski was under arrest. As a radio guys that sometimes you'll meet people that call into our show and it's like you're not at all what I thought you would be like when you first see Ted Kaczynski. Did you have an image in your head of what unabomber was going to be and was listed there was this Curry's. Armed. I was as weak as we moved on in the earlier stage of the investigation. So there's a bit like the summer and fall of 95. Com I at first didn't know what exactly we knew we had a excellent writer they also knew in the manifesto he reference only four books. One was a novel called the ancient engineers by L Sprague beak and a Lackey met else break camp I think it was about ninety. And just like in the per episode I think there was a little symposium I was lucky over three days in light of about ten different professors. All different makes and and fields and models that you will but you know from all different fields of academic like. And though we also invited the author of this book and he was in the ninety's you could barely walk. I think he died a year or two afterwards Ellsberg camp. And another book was written another book that was referenced was the true believer by Eric opera. And for the longest time I did it's all relative but for a few months back and I really thought our unabomber may be your car hopper. Type person you are your listeners know anything about them you wrote the book the true believer in the nineteen if you look very good selling book of about. Radicals within our society in what warms them and who are day and who go in the direction it goes in this direction but basically it as a as a brilliant thinker opera was. Excellent writer. He was like and my rate drop out. And he never educated on 380. At some core but then something happened. You know there was kind of a desperation. And ranked arms I think to myself I am missing something in the sky is writing what is it. One of my like all these clever worker you know negroes broads chicks had a magician. I I knew I was missing something there must be more coding or remorse something hidden in here. I was so focused on the manifest or decide to go back on some of the earlier letters. I found one he wrote and I believe 93 year nine neat sport and this particular letter include some interest and says the very top. At one of them was kind of paraphrasing her on haven't economy but it's essentially. I guess people without advanced degrees don't count. Okay that's interesting. And then about four lines later. I just because we don't have a college degree doesn't mean we're not still Smart in so many words. And I'm thinking OK so you read those sentences. Saying Blatter about three or four lines apart he's basically telling us. We want the reader to believe that he doesn't have. Certainly an advanced degree and he doesn't even a college degree. But wait a minute this is the same unabomber. Who leapt no clue what so ever on any bombing divide east. Or on any letter at all in fact he's the guy that the laboratory is convince. Purposefully inserted. Eight piece of hair that is not is under a stamp. Just the pro that saw Allen is giving us auto biographical clues as to who he is. And that's what I decided he doesn't back have a college degree and he doesn't back an advanced degree. But he's purposefully playing with us you do this kind of language is using words at a and we elevated his educational level. To perhaps a masters. They may be at Ph.D. maybe all but when I called ABD all but this occasion somewhere in the ranks. And that we put his intelligence level much higher. And before long it turns out that escrow while I was on the money and was a professor or hadn't been teaching for twenty years that point. And and ultimately that applied as it is and he. Not sort of fits like a listen to you talk all day is so fascinating and merlot to go but I had two quick ones for you were okay one. Since his capture have you ever. Reached out to Ted Kaczynski to say eight if you're a writer I mean Ted mean you should should do something together or you'd just done with a once he was captured. Good question that all your questions have been BB. In 2007. I was gonna teach for a day at the air force academy. Colorado. I was invited there in January of that year ago there'd April. Quickly telling this story in advance I reached out to the prison's staff that the arts Colorado. Super Max they basically I'll be coming out there I'd like interviewed Ted Kaczynski this is ten years victories. Got eleven years victories been arrested but he says OK fine agent FitzGerald will see it Kaczynski approves he does approve. I go out April 20 give or take you might day long. You know talks at the air force academy very bright day and the next day Ronald hard drive down two words up Lawrence. About the about two hours away. And at a camp where they're gonna call myself bona agent FitzGerald yes. Yeah this is you know a correctional officers on so mister Kaczynski just told me you block our view today. But he's busy and he can't do it now thought this day. We are listeners say in Florence super Max you are locked up by yourself. 237365. Your out only in our day to do a little bit of exercise it is our back in yourself so really Ted you're busy so I am convinced head. Probably figured Jim FitzGerald he knows my name well he I I blew out there just to see them. He waited so I landed probably the day before and of course I'm thirty minutes or so away from arriving at the prison and that's when he says. Ultra correctional not in my mind I'm busy so he probably thought he was getting it over you getting over me here I was up there already or another reason and and so what I do instead that ADB. I elsewhere in the car the other agent we went and climbed pikes peak so. I think got Ted I think I won that. It's a competition at all so. And now real quick and had last year 2016. The discovery people kind of knew I didn't have any real strong facetime with Ted only the day he was sent to real life. Where we had a staring contest about a minute. Idol I laid it out of about what ages at the end of my book and it was a strangest experience whatever. My job. They of course won that war because again I will tell you and your listeners. There was no FBI agents interviewed Ted Kaczynski. You would even talk to the defense attorneys that burst. And certainly not a psychiatrist or psychology burst. So they had two good actors in the miniseries. And they just won the bring them together these two battle of the brain so to speak and that's what they did but in no like that didn't happen that's again literary license. But it's a problem writing a letter to lemon you know the last year 2016. And maybe he'll respond whatever armored five page letter which included every word of it in the back of my book. And and I was hoping you would respond I all of who I was no tricks there's Discovery Channel series coming up. I want to help the writers captures the essence of you are anything you wanna say it. And I would at a dramatic ending to this but I never responded so let's hear them. And we gave them a PO box that would give my real it just easy at any wires and and batteries. That way. So. What's the one thing I would want help from them what's the one yeah I give you one question I'm Ted Kaczynski and his they are right fits you get one. Question what is it. Why don't people. That's a good one because I'm wit yeah it's crazy Izzy is I don't know where he made that. And and get to be to go full circle here I had that he questioned prepared 50. Let 2007 interview. And actually wrote down a few dozen war when I thought maybe he would agree to talk me in 2016. And what I did is I gave those questions to the writers and they're the ones the ones that in the Q&A date back and forth between six. And Kaczynski they incorporated many of those questions and read everything is it he wrote. They incorporated lot of that stuff into the so even though the meeting between this and Kaczynski in the miniseries is fiction all. They actually took many of the questions I would've asked and then Nate brought in many of the responses that they got on its own. Writing to similar type questions so. There's some truth even to this fictitious. Meeting between the two characters which never actually happened in likes. Fits I can't tell you what a pleasure it's been I I got a whole look. I haven't even flipped over my page and as you guys conceit the back pages more questions do. Because I haven't even gotten to the DC it's nice three and I haven't gotten to Steven Hatfill like and so much more but you've been awesome and you've been extremely generous for your time. First let me just say thank you very much I appreciate it. Well any questions that you didn't have answers. Unabom case as well as the year that there are some answer. Check out the journey to the center of the mine book three the first ten FBI years my book for will be the last ten FBI yours. Not like you can do and racks and DC sniper in Jonbenet Ramsey. Things like that that but for now book read the one last long chapter is about the unabom case and up. Everything I discuss what you today plus a whole lot more that you. The journey to the center of the mind book three James FitzGerald is the full name we know on forever more as fits. Fits thank you so much for being my inaugural guest on infinite wisdom the podcast. Your great great.